Divergent States

• Dennis McKenna: Nature, AI, and the Collapse of Separation

  Dennis McKenna joins 3L1T3 and Valerie Beltran to discuss the future of psychedelics, indigenous knowledge, and whether we are ready to bring these tools into mainstream culture without repeating the extractive patterns of the past. We explore the gap between good intentions and real reciprocity, what Western psychedelic enthusiasm is missing, and how community-based practice may matter more than clinical models alone.We also dive into the first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV, how long-term members showed surprising changes in behavior and biology, and why the community structure may have played a larger role than the compound itself. Dennis talks about the work happening at the McKenna Academy, preserving Amazonian herbarium collections, digitizing ancestral plant knowledge, and the ESPD Symposia.This conversation calls out the cultural side of psychedelics, not just the science. If psychedelics are going to help, they must be integrated with wisdom, not just technology.Join our Patreon for the exclusive extended interview!Key PointsPsychedelics entered global awareness through indigenous stewardship, not Western inventionReciprocity requires more than money and acknowledgmentThe ESPD Symposia preserve ethnobotanical knowledge and make it publicEfforts to digitize herbarium collections in Peru before they are lostChapters00:00 Welcome to the season finale with Valerie01:10 Who Dennis McKenna is and why he still matters04:50 What still feels unresolved after 50 years06:15 Co-optation, capitalism, and indigenous knowledge09:00 The ESPD symposia and preserving ancestral knowledge12:40 Biognosis and digitizing Amazonian herbarium archives17:00 Why preserving knowledge matters more than artifacts18:35 The first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV22:45 Behavioral change, alcoholism, and community support24:40 Serotonin transporter findings and biological mechanisms27:30 Neuroplasticity and long-term structural change31:00 Microdosing vs macro experiences33:20 Default mode network and stepping outside the self36:20 Separation from nature and cultural disconnection38:30 Technology, AI, and cultural fragmentation42:20 What real reciprocity might look like46:50 Avoiding cultural appropriation and extraction50:00 Psychedelics entering clinical models52:45 Mushrooms as ideal symbiotic partners56:00 Future of psychedelics in 10 years01:00:20 Ibogaine as global brain reset01:04:00 Evolution, partnership, and species symbiosis01:06:00 Closing thoughts Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music! Send us a text DIVERGENTS10Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 FiresideProject.orgDownload the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDEZendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the showSpecial Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, on Patreon! Use our code to get 10% off of Zendo Sit Training DIVERGENTS10 https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

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• Betty Aldworth: MAPS, MDMA, and the Battle Over Psychedelic Medicine

  In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 sits down with Betty Aldworth, the new co-president of MAPS, as she steps into shared leadership with Ismail Ali following Rick Doblin’s four-decade run.Betty brings decades of experience in drug policy reform, from Colorado’s 2012 cannabis legalization campaign to leading Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and now helps guide MAPS through one of the movement’s most pivotal moments: the FDA’s rejection of Lycos Therapeutics’ MDMA-assisted therapy application.We unpack the tension between science and advocacy, urgency and rigor, and explore what real access means for people living with PTSD. Betty offers a candid, emotionally grounded look at the FDA’s critique, the role of stigma, and how MAPS plans to keep pushing forward through education, policy, and global research initiatives.Later, the conversation turns to the larger movement: political support from both sides of the aisle, state-level reform models, and MAPS’ upcoming 40th anniversary in 2026.Key PointsBetty’s path from SSDP to co-president of MAPSThe FDA’s rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy: what it really meansHow “positive adverse events” became a sticking point in the FDA reviewDurability of treatment effects and the debate over long-term dataBalancing activism, science, and education under MAPS’ new leadership modelThe growing divide between regulatory caution and patient urgencyGrassroots and state-level psychedelic reform gaining groundThe stigma that still shadows MDMA despite decades of dataHarm-reduction advice for those seeking underground healingWhat’s ahead for MAPS’ 40th anniversary and new research directions⏱ Chapter Markers00:00 – Intro — Bryan’s stage play, today’s guest: Betty Aldworth02:00 – MAPS’ new leadership and legacy after Rick Doblin05:00 – Betty on stepping into the role and the three MAPS pillars08:00 – From activism to leadership — lessons from SSDP11:45 – Balancing research, advocacy, and education14:00 – FDA rejection letter — what really happened16:00 – “Positive adverse events” and the question of abuse potential22:30 – Durability of treatment and COVID-era data gaps26:30 – Prior MDMA experience and bias — myth or factor?29:20 – Politics, science, and the credibility dilemma32:30 – RFK Jr., AOC, and politicization of psychedelics35:00 – Echoes of the 1980s scheduling fight36:20 – What comes next — Phase III, audits, and resilience38:30 – MAPS’ evolving research priorities & global work41:00 – Normalization, decriminalization, and stigma43:45 – Science vs activism — carrying both forward48:00 – State-level reform and slow federal process50:30 – Cannabis Send us a text DIVERGENTS10Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 FiresideProject.orgDownload the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDEZendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the showSpecial Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, on Patreon! Use our code to get 10% off of Zendo Sit Training DIVERGENTS10 https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

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• David Bronner on Corporate Psychedelics, Mysticism, and the All-One Future

  Dr. Bronner’s Cosmic Engagement Officer David Bronner joins Divergent States for a candid, nuts-and-bolts conversation about building an “All One” company culture, pushing for psychedelic policy reform, and rewiring global supply chains to be fair, transparent, and regenerative. We trace the lineage from Rainbow Gatherings to Burning Man, from hemp activism to MAPS, and from commodity brokers to farmer-first vertical integration. Co-host therapist Valerie Beltran helps press on the tradeoffs: regulated access versus decriminalization, mission versus financing, growth versus grassroots.Key pointsThe “All One God Faith” DNA, salary caps (5× lowest vested wage), and why profit is a means, not the mission.Why Dr. Bronner’s backed hemp early, fought DEA roadblocks, and supported MAPS, Oregon’s Measure 110, DC decrim, and church-based access models.Regulated access vs. decriminalization: complementary pathways; cost, community, and safety implications.Purpose-aligned financing: why many mission brands drift, and how the emerging Purpose Pledge aims to solve it.Sourcing as activism: Ghana palm grown in multi-strata agroforestry; olive oil partnerships across Palestinian and Israeli producers; farmer income and soil health as first principles.Regenerative Organic Certification: weaving soil health, animal welfare, and fair labor into one consumer standard.Cultural lineage: Zendo/sanctuary work, AA’s Bill Wilson and LSD, Sacred Plant Alliance, and lessons from the Brotherhood of Eternal Love.Pitfalls and PR landmines: navigating blame and lawsuits in a fast-shifting policy landscape.Longevity over hype: why real soap beats detergents, and the quirky “punk rock soap opera” moment that proved it.Practical integration: moving from unitive states to everyday choices—diet, sourcing, and local service.If this conversation resonated, follow the show on Spotify/Apple, leave a short review, and consider supporting the work on Patreon to keep community-driven media independent.Special thanks to Sandbgz for the music! Follow him on Spotify!00:00 – Intro & Setup02:00 – From Burning Man to the Mic04:35 – Origins & Rainbow Gathering Roots06:25 – The All One God Faith Legacy10:25 – Sourcing as Activism15:20 – Mission Financing & the Purpose Pledge17:35 – Building Roots & Staying Grounded22:30 – Why Risk Psychedelic Advocacy28:30 – Early Activism & the Hemp Wars33:00 – Meeting Rick Doblin at Burning Man37:00 – Decrim, Churches & Community Access39:15 – Pitfalls & Lawsuits40:30 – Choosing Battles & Lessons from Oregon 11042:45 – Integration & Regenerative Organic AgricultureSend us a text DIVERGENTS10Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 FiresideProject.orgDownload the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDEZendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the showSpecial Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, on Patreon! Use our code to get 10% off of Zendo Sit Training DIVERGENTS10 https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

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• Joe Moore on the Future of Psychedelics: From Underground to Mainstream

  Psychedelics are no longer the fringe—they’re reshaping medicine, culture, and consciousness itself.In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Joe Moore, co-founder and CEO of Psychedelics Today, to explore the messy evolution of the movement: from the chaotic 1960s to today’s corporate clinics and grassroots revival.They trace Psychedelics Today’s origins, dive into the Vital training program, and discuss what it means to build trust in a scene that still distrusts institutions. Joe shares insight into the next decade of psychedelic science—AI-assisted molecule discovery, new drugs entering clinical trials, and the fading of old stigmas—and the risks of turning medicine into marketing.Along the way, they talk Leary and McKenna, ketamine cults, LSD alchemy, and the underground traditions worth preserving.The result is a grounded, forward-looking conversation about authenticity, ethics, and the future of altered states.Key Points Covered How Psychedelics Today started from the breathwork undergroundWhat the 1960s got wrong (and right) about psychedelics  The danger of idolizing substances and personalities — “don’t worship the drug” How overuse of ketamine mirrors past mistakes in psychedelic cultureThe future of psychedelic research and the AI-driven chemistry boomVital, the 12-month training program creating the next generation of psychedelic professionalsWhat it takes to run an ethical business in a scene that distrusts businessHarm reduction and why testing your substances matters more than ever The LSD Philosopher’s Stone — does the chemist’s energy shape the trip?  Why pleasure and integration must coexist in psychedelic healing 🎙️ Joe Moore joins r/Psychonaut for an AMA on October 9, 2025! 🎧 Support the show and hear the Patreon-only “Trip Stories & Cosmic Jokes” bonus segment at patreon.com/divergentstatesSpecial thanks to SndBagz for the music!00:00 – Intro / Bryan returns / Reggie Watts recap / Season 2 preview04:16 – Meeting Joe Moore / Origins of Psychedelics Today07:30 – Building a new media voice beyond academic monoculture08:46 – Lessons from the 1960s and the cult of personality12:00 – “Don’t Worship the Substance” – The Danger of Psychedelic Deification13:30 – Unsung Heroes: Shulgins, Dr. Z, Grof & Leonard Pickard15:00 – Repeating Old Mistakes: Ketamine Overuse and Media Myths17:40 – “Is Anyone Driving the Bus?” – Who Really Controls Psychedelics Today20:30 – Can Clinical Models Honor Mystical Experiences?23:00 – Psychedelic Journalism: Objectivity vs Calling Bullshit25:30 – Inside Vital – Redefining Psychedelic TrainingSend us a text DIVERGENTS10Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 FiresideProject.orgDownload the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDEZendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the showSpecial Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, on Patreon! Use our code to get 10% off of Zendo Sit Training DIVERGENTS10 https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

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• Reggie Watts on Psychedelics, Creativity, and Consciousness

  Comedian, musician, and improvisational genius Reggie Watts joins Divergent States for an unfiltered deep dive into psychedelics, creativity, and consciousness. From jamming on LSD and mushrooms to experimenting with dissociatives and even the Apple Vision Pro, Reggie opens up about how altered states shape his art, comedy, music, and worldview.We cover:Psychedelics in creative flow and improvisationDissociatives as “drug-induced float tanks”Saffron, ketamine, and unique mixes in performanceMainstreaming psychedelics in cultureFlow states, music as healing, and shadow workReggie’s bucket-list substances and wild stories from stage to studio🔑 Whether you’re a psychonaut, a fan of Reggie’s comedy and music, or just curious about the psychedelic creative process, this is one of his rare long-form podcast conversations.👉 Full extended conversation (45+ minutes extra) only on Patreon: patreon.com/divergentstates🎵 Thanks to Sndbagz for the music!00:00 – Intro: Divergent States with Valerie Beltran02:35 – Reggie Watts joins the show03:27 – Saffron mixes & ketamine creativity04:40 – Psychedelics and the creative process05:40 – Solo vs. group creation on psychedelics06:36 – Improv, ego, and the psychedelic equalizer07:25 – Mainstreaming psychedelics & cultural shifts08:15 – Tripping in ancient and future times09:48 – Flow states, art, and natural psychedelics12:26 – Dissociatives vs. psychedelics15:00 – Apple Vision Pro + dissociatives17:16 – Anamnesis: remembering the forgotten19:31 – Jamming with Nazzle & improvisation21:47 – Psychedelics: loosening control vs. sharpening focus25:08 – Shadow work & healing through music27:37 – Permission, freedom, and flow29:47 – Psychedelics as tools or collaborators32:00 – Closing thoughts & Patreon invite35:04 – Outro reflections & gratitudeSend us a text DIVERGENTS10Zendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10 FiresideProject.orgDownload the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDEZendo ProjectOur listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the showSpecial Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mycocosm, on Patreon! Use our code to get 10% off of Zendo Sit Training DIVERGENTS10 https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod

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