Divergent States

What really happens when psychedelics change someone, and why do some people come back grounded while others spiral into ego, conspiracy, or spiritual bypassing?
In this long-form conversation, comedian and science-minded psychonaut Shane Mauss joins Divergent States for a deep dive into what psychedelics do to the human mind beneath the mystical language. Drawing on neuroscience, cognitive bias, evolutionary psychology, and lived psychedelic experience, Shane explains how substances like LSD, mushrooms, and DMT increase mental plasticity, loosen rigid categories, and open the brain to new ways of thinking — for better and for worse.
Together, we explore why altered states can lead to creativity, healing, and insight, but also why they can just as easily fuel delusion, conspiracy thinking, and inflated ego. We talk about the placebo effect, Dunning-Kruger, belief formation, and how access to infinite information can make people feel like they know everything while understanding very little. Shane also shares candid stories from inside the psychedelic comedy world, including how Tales From the Trip was secretly launched at Comedy Central, why he’s uneasy about the current psychedelic “gold rush,” and how mainstream acceptance has changed the culture.
This episode isn’t about chasing cosmic secrets or mystical narratives. It’s about how the mind actually works — and how psychedelics can either help us become more open, curious, and flexible, or lock us deeper into fantasy if we don’t know how to think critically about what we experience.
If you care about psychedelics, consciousness, and staying grounded in reality while exploring extraordinary states, this conversation is for you.
Shane's new special comes out 2/18 on ShaneMauss.com!
Special thanks to Drip who did the music, check him out on Spotify and Soundcloud!
 00:00 — Season 2 Opening
 04:18 — From Stand-Up to Science
 07:40 — Creating Psychedelic Theater
 11:40 — Why Psychedelic Comedy Was Taboo
 14:50 — Tales From the Trip Origin Story
 19:20 — Why He Doesn’t Feel Like a Regular Comic
 23:40 — Comedy as Tension and Truth
 34:00 — George Carlin and Big-Idea Comedy
 38:20 — Psychedelics Going Mainstream
 41:00 — Skeptical Psychonauts
 45:20 — Seeing the Dark Side of the Scene
 47:45 — Psychedelics, Categorization, and the Brain
 51:30 — The Crunchy-to-Conservative Pipeline
 54:00 — Dunning-Kruger and Illusions of Knowledge
 57:10 — Why Science Is Counterintuitive
 01:02:40 — Why These Conversations Matter 
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Season Two of Divergent States is about something simple and surprisingly rare: exploring altered states without losing touch with reality.
In this preview episode, 3L1T3 and Bryan share two short moments from upcoming conversations that define the tone of the season ahead.
In the first, Shane Mauss reflects on how psychedelics open people to awe—but also to certainty, conspiracies, and belief systems that can replace reality if no one pushes back. In the second, Cesar Marin explains why presence and human connection are the real work of integration, not endless chasing of peak experiences.
Together, these moments capture what Divergent States has always tried to do: hold space for wonder without drifting into delusion, depth without losing grounding, and exploration rooted in real human connection.
Patreon supporters get extended versions of these conversations, including sections that don’t survive algorithm-friendly edits. But this preview is here for everyone—because harm reduction, presence, and honest conversation shouldn’t be paywalled.
Welcome to Season Two.
Chapters
00:00 – Welcome back & season context
Introducing Season Two and why this year matters.
00:28 – What Divergent States actually is
What the show is: harm reduction, not hype or spiritual theater.
01:05 – Shane Mauss: Awe, science, and belief systems
The “ghost crocodile” and microscope analogy.
04:49 – Why psychedelics create both insight and delusion
Reflections on pattern-seeking and certainty in psychedelic spaces.
05:20 – Cesar Marin: Presence as integration
Connection, mushrooms, and staying grounded in real life.
07:17 – The power of daily human connection
Kids, texts, meditation, and showing up.
08:55 – What Divergent States is really about
Awe without delusion; depth without losing touch.
09:15 – Patreon & how to support the show
Extended cuts, deeper conversations, and why it matters.
10:10 – Harm reduction & Zendo Project
Why we partner with them and what the code supports.
10:50 – Closing & Season Two welcome
Personal sign-off and transition into the new season.
Send us a text
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Zendo Project
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike on Patreon!


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Dennis McKenna joins 3L1T3 and Valerie Beltran to discuss the future of psychedelics, indigenous knowledge, and whether we are ready to bring these tools into mainstream culture without repeating the extractive patterns of the past. We explore the gap between good intentions and real reciprocity, what Western psychedelic enthusiasm is missing, and how community-based practice may matter more than clinical models alone.
We also dive into the first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV, how long-term members showed surprising changes in behavior and biology, and why the community structure may have played a larger role than the compound itself. Dennis talks about the work happening at the McKenna Academy, preserving Amazonian herbarium collections, digitizing ancestral plant knowledge, and the ESPD Symposia.
This conversation calls out the cultural side of psychedelics, not just the science. If psychedelics are going to help, they must be integrated with wisdom, not just technology.
Join our Patreon for the exclusive extended interview!
Key Points
Psychedelics entered global awareness through indigenous stewardship, not Western invention
Reciprocity requires more than money and acknowledgment
The ESPD Symposia preserve ethnobotanical knowledge and make it public
Efforts to digitize herbarium collections in Peru before they are lost
Chapters
00:00 Welcome to the season finale with Valerie
01:10 Who Dennis McKenna is and why he still matters
04:50 What still feels unresolved after 50 years
06:15 Co-optation, capitalism, and indigenous knowledge
09:00 The ESPD symposia and preserving ancestral knowledge
12:40 Biognosis and digitizing Amazonian herbarium archives
17:00 Why preserving knowledge matters more than artifacts
18:35 The first biomedical study of ayahuasca with the UDV
22:45 Behavioral change, alcoholism, and community support
24:40 Serotonin transporter findings and biological mechanisms
27:30 Neuroplasticity and long-term structural change
31:00 Microdosing vs macro experiences
33:20 Default mode network and stepping outside the self
36:20 Separation from nature and cultural disconnection
38:30 Technology, AI, and cultural fragmentation
42:20 What real reciprocity might look like
46:50 Avoiding cultural appropriation and extraction
50:00 Psychedelics entering clinical models
52:45 Mushrooms as ideal symbiotic partners
56:00 Future of psychedelics in 10 years
01:00:20 Ibogaine as global brain reset
01:04:00 Evolution, partnership, and species symbiosis
01:06:00 Closing thoughts
 Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music! 
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FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

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Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike on Patreon!


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In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 sits down with Betty Aldworth, the new co-president of MAPS, as she steps into shared leadership with Ismail Ali following Rick Doblin’s four-decade run.
Betty brings decades of experience in drug policy reform, from Colorado’s 2012 cannabis legalization campaign to leading Students for Sensible Drug Policy, and now helps guide MAPS through one of the movement’s most pivotal moments: the FDA’s rejection of Lycos Therapeutics’ MDMA-assisted therapy application.
We unpack the tension between science and advocacy, urgency and rigor, and explore what real access means for people living with PTSD. Betty offers a candid, emotionally grounded look at the FDA’s critique, the role of stigma, and how MAPS plans to keep pushing forward through education, policy, and global research initiatives.
Later, the conversation turns to the larger movement: political support from both sides of the aisle, state-level reform models, and MAPS’ upcoming 40th anniversary in 2026.
Key Points
Betty’s path from SSDP to co-president of MAPS
The FDA’s rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy: what it really means
How “positive adverse events” became a sticking point in the FDA review
Durability of treatment effects and the debate over long-term data
Balancing activism, science, and education under MAPS’ new leadership model
The growing divide between regulatory caution and patient urgency
Grassroots and state-level psychedelic reform gaining ground
The stigma that still shadows MDMA despite decades of data
Harm-reduction advice for those seeking underground healing
What’s ahead for MAPS’ 40th anniversary and new research directions
⏱ Chapter Markers
00:00 – Intro — Bryan’s stage play, today’s guest: Betty Aldworth
02:00 – MAPS’ new leadership and legacy after Rick Doblin
05:00 – Betty on stepping into the role and the three MAPS pillars
08:00 – From activism to leadership — lessons from SSDP
11:45 – Balancing research, advocacy, and education
14:00 – FDA rejection letter — what really happened
16:00 – “Positive adverse events” and the question of abuse potential
22:30 – Durability of treatment and COVID-era data gaps
26:30 – Prior MDMA experience and bias — myth or factor?
29:20 – Politics, science, and the credibility dilemma
32:30 – RFK Jr., AOC, and politicization of psychedelics
35:00 – Echoes of the 1980s scheduling fight
36:20 – What comes next — Phase III, audits, and resilience
38:30 – MAPS’ evolving research priorities & global work
41:00 – Normalization, decriminalization, and stigma
43:45 – Science vs activism — carrying both forward
48:00 – State-level reform and slow federal process
50:30 – Cannabis rescheduling and broader reform
52:00 – A message to people living with PTSD
55:00 – MAPS’ 40th anniversary — what’s ahead
57:00 – Closing reflections — stay weird, keep exploring
Thanks to Dyl👽Alien for the music!
Send us a text
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Zendo Project
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike on Patreon!


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Dr. Bronner’s Cosmic Engagement Officer David Bronner joins Divergent States for a candid, nuts-and-bolts conversation about building an “All One” company culture, pushing for psychedelic policy reform, and rewiring global supply chains to be fair, transparent, and regenerative. We trace the lineage from Rainbow Gatherings to Burning Man, from hemp activism to MAPS, and from commodity brokers to farmer-first vertical integration. Co-host therapist Valerie Beltran helps press on the tradeoffs: regulated access versus decriminalization, mission versus financing, growth versus grassroots.
Key points
The “All One God Faith” DNA, salary caps (5× lowest vested wage), and why profit is a means, not the mission.
Why Dr. Bronner’s backed hemp early, fought DEA roadblocks, and supported MAPS, Oregon’s Measure 110, DC decrim, and church-based access models.
Regulated access vs. decriminalization: complementary pathways; cost, community, and safety implications.
Purpose-aligned financing: why many mission brands drift, and how the emerging Purpose Pledge aims to solve it.
Sourcing as activism: Ghana palm grown in multi-strata agroforestry; olive oil partnerships across Palestinian and Israeli producers; farmer income and soil health as first principles.
Regenerative Organic Certification: weaving soil health, animal welfare, and fair labor into one consumer standard.
Cultural lineage: Zendo/sanctuary work, AA’s Bill Wilson and LSD, Sacred Plant Alliance, and lessons from the Brotherhood of Eternal Love.
Pitfalls and PR landmines: navigating blame and lawsuits in a fast-shifting policy landscape.
Longevity over hype: why real soap beats detergents, and the quirky “punk rock soap opera” moment that proved it.
Practical integration: moving from unitive states to everyday choices—diet, sourcing, and local service.
If this conversation resonated, follow the show on Spotify/Apple, leave a short review, and consider supporting the work on Patreon to keep community-driven media independent.
Special thanks to Sandbgz for the music! Follow him on Spotify!
00:00 – Intro & Setup
02:00 – From Burning Man to the Mic
04:35 – Origins & Rainbow Gathering Roots
06:25 – The All One God Faith Legacy
10:25 – Sourcing as Activism
15:20 – Mission Financing & the Purpose Pledge
17:35 – Building Roots & Staying Grounded
22:30 – Why Risk Psychedelic Advocacy
28:30 – Early Activism & the Hemp Wars
33:00 – Meeting Rick Doblin at Burning Man
37:00 – Decrim, Churches & Community Access
39:15 – Pitfalls & Lawsuits
40:30 – Choosing Battles & Lessons from Oregon 110
42:45 – Integration & Regenerative Organic Agriculture
46:45 – From Vision to Action
51:55 – Balancing Perfection & Pragmatism
55:45 – Longevity over Hype
1:01:00 – Heaven on Earth & Deep Time
1:03:45 – Brotherhood of Eternal Love & Rainbow Bridge
1:08:30 – Closing Reflections
1:12:00 – Outro & Patreon Call to Acti
Send us a text
FiresideProject.org
Download the app or text/call 62-FIRESIDE

Zendo Project
Our listeners get 10% off the Zendo Project SIT Program with the code DIVERGENTS10

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show
Special Thanks to our Macrodosers, Super D and Mike on Patreon!


https://linktr.ee/3L1T3Mod