The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Is wanting to be rich selfish? Does making money require exploiting other people? Or can the pursuit of wealth actually benefit society?

In this episode guest host Sally Herships speaks with philosopher Jason Brennan about his book, Why It's OK to Want to Be Rich. Jason makes the case that both wanting money and earning money are signs that we’re creating value for society. In this conversation, they explore why society believes money corrupts relationships, what wealthy individuals owe to society, and the cultural differences around money and wealth.

This episode was produced in partnership with Vox's Future Perfect.

Host: Sally Herships, journalist and director of the audio program at Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism. (Find Sally’s work here).

Guest: Jason Brennan, professor of philosophy and public affairs at Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business.

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

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The Gray Area is taking a break today — but we’ve got something special for you.

We’re dropping an episode from one of our favorite podcasts, Unexplainable from Vox. In it, host Sally Helm considers whether or not it’s ethical to kill lantern flies, an invasive species that has gained a foothold on the East Coast of the US.In the episode Sally explores what we owe other living creatures, how squishing bugs changes us, and what we should do when there is not a single clear moral path.

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members
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We were told that airing our personal trauma in public would set us free. Instead, we got “the trauma script,” celebrity branding, and performative empathy.

In today's episode, guest host Christine Emba talks with cultural theorist and professor Catherine Liu, author of Traumatized: The New Politics of Public Suffering. In this scathing book, Catherine argues that our modern obsession with the "trauma script" isn't a radical act of liberation, but rather a distraction from widening economic inequality. They discuss why identity pluralism has eclipsed class struggle, how public therapy speak undermines democratic debate, and why we must move away from commodified self-absorption to focus on collective political and economic change.

Guest Host Christine Emba, columnist and author

Guest: Catherine Liu, author of Traumatized: The New Politics of Public Suffering

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

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In today's episode, Vox senior reporter and producer Miles Bryan talks with writer Daniel Kolitz about his piece for The Baffler, "Paid Phones." Kolitz explains what it felt like to be among the first wave of workers displaced by generative AI. The two of them talked about how fintech payday loan apps use hidden fees and subscriptions to profit off of desperate borrowers, and how an online community on Reddit is organizing a quiet resistance against predatory lenders.

Guest Host: Miles Bryan, Vox Senior Producer and Reporter

Guest: Daniel Kolitz, author of Paid Phones .

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

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What should a college teach? How to think? How to find a career? How to be a good citizen? What about how to acquire money, influence, and power?

In today’s episode, guest host Bryan Walsh speaks to journalist and writer Theo Baker about his investigation into Stanford University, where Baker was an undergrad student at the time. He entered the school as a bright-eye freshman, eager to build a career in tech. He left disillusioned by the school’s culture. His book reveals an insidious relationship between Silicon Valley and Stanford, where power, money, and success are prized higher than ethics, education, and the wellbeing of students.

Guest Host: Bryan Walsh, Senior writer, Coefficient Giving

Guest: Theo Baker, author of How to Rule the World: An Education in Power at Stanford University

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices