It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

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Rob Draper hosts a bonus edition of It Was What It Was with Jamie Carragher stepping in to pay tribute to the late great Franco Baresi .
Carragher explains why Baresi’s name is passed down through generations, calls him the greatest defender he’s ever seen, and hails Sacchi’s AC Milan as the greatest team until Guardiola’s Barcelona, with Baresi and Maldini central to a back four that revolutionised modern football through pressing, a high line and the shift away from the sweeper system.
They discuss Baresi’s unique blend of sweeper elegance and aggressive defending in a back four, his extraordinary return from a knee injury for the 1994 World Cup final against Romario, and how his football brain overcame a lack of height. Carragher also shares meeting Baresi at a Milan derby and showing his signed Baresi shirts.

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In part two of our Total Football series, Jonathan and Rob explore the ideas behind football’s great tactical revolution.

From the structuralist architecture and social change of 1960s Amsterdam to Johan Cruyff’s place within a collective system, they trace how a new way of thinking shaped the Dutch game.

But it's not all Ajax. Focus shifts to Rotterdam and Feyenoord: Ernst Happel’s 4-3-3, their landmark 1970 European Cup win, and the overlooked tactical breakthrough that helped pave the way for Ajax and Cruyff.

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In the first episode of a new four-part series, Jonathan and Rob examine the origins of Total Football - and why it is far more than simply slick passing or players swapping positions.
They explore the overlooked influence of English coach Vic Buckingham at Ajax, the role of Rinus Michels in shaping the philosophy, and the tactical shift from individual battles to coordinated systems.
There's why Dutch football’s late professionalisation made it a laboratory for new ideas; how advances in fitness made pressing possible; and why similar thinking was developing simultaneously in Soviet football under Valeriy Lobanovskyi.
This is the story of the conditions that made Total Football possible - before Johan Cruyff became its greatest expression.
Rob and Jonathan will be back next week for part two. Sign up to our Patreon to get early-access to every episode right now.
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Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Jordi Cruyff for the first episode in a new series on Total Football: its origins, its legacy, and one of its key architects, Johan Cruyff.
Who better than Jordi to reflect on his father's footballing influences and legacy? Beginning with his upbringing in Amsterdam, the hardship that shaped his ambition, and the profound influence of Rinus Michels on his development, Jordi also shares personal insight into Johan’s personality: stubborn, curious, challenging and, of course, never afraid to go against the grain.
The conversation explores Cruyff’s football philosophy in detail - his attacking mindset, positional ideas, emphasis on angles and intelligence, and refusal to compromise on style. Jordi also retells the story of being named Jordi in Franco-era Spain, a moment that captured his father’s defiant spirit and deep connection with Catalonia.
Rob, Jonathan and Jordi look at Johan’s transformational impact on Barcelona, the 1992 European Cup, his influence on Pep Guardiola, and how Cruyff’s ideas continue to shape elite football - from La Masia to the modern Premier League.
Rob and Jonathan will be back next week for a dive into the origins of Total Football itself; the first in a new four-part series. Sign up to our Patreon to get early-access to every episode.
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In World Cup final week, we just had to ask Jonathan and Rob to decide on the best World Cup finals of all time - and they certainly delivered.

From Uruguay in 1930 to Qatar in 2022, there's no better way to whet your appetite for Sunday evening than by taking a trip down memory lane with the guys.

From the drama of that very first final in 1930, to the political tension and selection intrigue of Hungary’s defeat to Italy in 1938, they trace how the World Cup final quickly became a stage for far more than just football.

Along the way they revisit the heartbreak of the 1950 Maracanazo, the tactical and cultural significance of West Germany’s win over the Netherlands in 1974, and the extraordinary scale of the 1954 Miracle of Bern, when Hungary’s great side were denied by West Germany. They also reflect on the modern classic of Argentina v France in 2022.

Will we have another classic on our hands in 2026?

00:00 Uruguay 4–2 Argentina (1930)
17:45 West Germany 2–1 Netherlands (1974)
30:15 Uruguay 2–1 Brazil (1950)
40:55 Italy 4–2 Hungary (1938)
47:50 Argentina 3–3 France (2022)
54:55 West Germany 3–2 Hungary (1954)
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