Gospel Conversations podcast

In churches around the world, Christians will affirm that ‘the Bible is the word of God’. But what do they mean by this? Whether they realise it or not, they are making a claim about a genre - a certain class of literature that is special and ‘inspired’. But this claim has been a stumbling block for Christians and onlookers alike. Do we really claim that all 66 books are literally true? And what does ‘true’ even mean?
This is the huge topic that we asked Mark Strom to address for us. It really is one of the ‘so what’ questions for our day and age. Mark is uniquely qualified to give us some wisdom on this because, among things, he wrote a significant book on how to read the Bible called ‘The Symphony of Scripture’. (Still readily available and if you have not got a copy - buy it). So at first we just expected him to give us a summary of the book. But he went further.
He decided to give us a story of how his relationship with the Bible - the way he interpreted what ‘scripture’ meant - developed over the years. He gives us nine different perspectives he went through. They are not ‘right or wrong’ but rather growing perspectives on the Bible, his experience of reading it, and how we should respond to it. Marvellous stuff and very very thought provoking. More than that - very wise and we can benefit from Mark’s long, and at times, torturous experience.
He used slides in the talk - if you watch on youTube you will see them spliced into the talk. If not, here they are to download.



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A recent (Christian) book puts up the white flag of surrender before the insurgent world of Artificial Intelligence; ‘Intelligence is no longer a quality that marks out human beings from the rest of the world…’ So - machines can think and think better than us? Or can they? And what does this say about what it means to be a human being and what the vast Christian vision of being ‘made in the image of God’ means?
That is what I address in this talk. This year we are taking a ‘so what’ view for the Creation gospel… in other words, what are its consequences and how does it help us see the world and serve? One of our precious themes in Gospel Conversations is a high view of humanity. I have thought for years that we need to get a higher view of humanity if we are to have any chance of grasping the incarnation and indeed the whole gospel. So if we start from that mountain top - how do we view the threat of AI - and it is scary. Very scary.
As I explain in this talk my perspective is pretty unique on this particular topic for a couple of reasons. Firstly I have spent my professional career helping people ‘think’ better in the face of complex problems. So I have a lot of ideas about what ‘intelligence’ means. My consulting company spent years helping some very large clients address ‘wicked’ problems, and we pioneered design thinking on a global scale. And secondly I am now the chair of one of the most innovative tech start ups in genAI - so I have a front row seat on what it means and on the new economy that is emerging. So my views on AI come from the front line of experience not from reading articles about it.
I end up in a very different place from the quote of our friend that I began with. So our job is not to surrender in the face of AI but to discover at ever deeper levels the mystery of thought and of being human and to stand beside Shakespeare after all those years and say “What a piece of work is man - how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving; how express and admirable in action; how like an angel in apprehension; how like a god; the beauty of the world; the paragon of animals.”
I used Powerpoint slides when I first delivered this talk at the St James Institute in Sydney. Here they are if you want to download them.



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Nothing is more foundational to the traditional gospel than a ‘theory of sin’. But for most of us, it is a messy topic that we have not thought about enough. Hence Christianity has all too often suggested a dark anthropology that defines humanity as ‘totally depraved’ or incapable of ‘any good thing’. This is not exactly a good place to start an evangelistic conversation!
So we need a better model of what we mean by ‘sin’.
In this interview with Rob, Tony develops a different ‘theory of sin and evil’ - one that emerged years ago mainly in conversations with Mark Strom. Mark and Tony both were deeply dissatisfied with traditional models - but felt that the ball was in our court to develop and explain an ALTERNATIVE model of sin, not just critique the old evangelical models.
This talk is based on a paper that I (Tony) wrote years ago which we upload here.

The first 20 minutes seem to be a slow start. You could skip them - but the point I make there is quite helpful. The Gospel is an argument and the critical foundation of any argument is to find the deep structures of the problem. That is what I am doing in this talk, and the opening explains why that is so important.



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This is the third in Ben Myer’s wonderful series on the thinking of the early church fathers. This talk examines their view on the burning question of discipleship - what does it mean to follow Christ in how we live particularly in the public square? Ben’s first talk covered their view of salvation - and how they did not have a ‘penal substitution’ model of redemption. His second talk covered their view of the inner life - how we live righteously in our souls and thoughts. So this talk moves to the vexed place of the public square - how do Christians participate in the ‘world’ (or not).
This talk is in a sense ‘unfinished’ - as Ben says, they never got to a simple clear position and there were conflicting positions on this question. What I found illuminating and relevant to us, is that how they confronted this question varied according to the changing circumstances in which they found themselves. So our lesson would be that we have the same task - understand our circumstances and then work out how our faith should work out in today’s world.
Ben finishes with St Augustine’s ‘City of God’ where Augustine developed the theory of our ‘double citizenship’ in two very different kingdoms. And Ben laments how later centuries turned some of this thinking into forms of ‘Christian nationalism’. Finding God or the echoes of the divine in the public square is a vital concern for us all - and particularly relevant as we realise the Christ is Lord of the cosmos not just individual lives. In fact, his Lordship was expressed in very political terms for the first century church - something that Edwin Judge and Mark Strom have stressed in previous talks.
So this is challenging topic and one for which there are probably no easy answers. But Ben’s talk gives us a great perspective to think it through. This year we will be following a ‘so what’ theme in Gospel Conversations - ie what are the ‘so what's for the Creation Gospel so this talk is a great door opener for our year.
Our next talk will address the question of evangelism and how we frame the ‘creation gospel’. I will give this talk and it will focus on our ‘theory of sin’ - a vital topic. I will critique the dominant mental model of sin (or at least the one I grew up with as an evangelical) and offer what I think is a much richer and more biblical model of what this critical thing called ‘sin’ means.



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Welcome to our final conversation with John Behr on Maximus. Alongside this episode you’ll find the handouts John distributed — well worth having open as you listen, as he works through them closely and the text repays careful attention.
If you haven’t already, we’d also recommend starting with the recent introductory episode, where the grand themes of this series are laid out.

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